Aussetzer bei schneller Repetition im Tutti (Gloria Concerto)

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#16
03.05.2021 10:45
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#16 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Mittlerweile habe ich die Rückmeldung von Händler erhalten. Die Orgel kommt hier tatsächlich an ihre technische Grenze. Ob hardwareseitig ein Upgrade bzgl. Prozessorleistung oder -management möglich ist, muss noch geprüft werden.

Ich bin etwas überrascht, dass ich bereits nach einem knappen halben Jahr die technische Grenze von Physis erreicht habe und hoffe, dass es eine technische Lösung gibt.


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#17
03.05.2021 16:50
avatar  mvn
#17 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
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mvn

Diese Antwort erstaunt mich doch sehr.......... Ich hatte weder an meiner Concerto 234 noch an meiner heutigen Concerto 350 je solche Erscheinungen... Die vielstimmigen Akkorde in schnellem Tempo im Tutti mit allen Koppeln erklingen sauber.

LG
Martin

2014 - 2020 Gloria Concerto 234 DLX
2020 - ......... Gloria Concerto 350 Trend


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#18
28.05.2021 13:25
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#18 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Update: Eine Erweiterung der Prozessorleistung soll das Problem beheben. Nach Einbau und ausgiebigem Test melde ich mich wieder. Dafür gibt es aber noch keinen Termin...

Viele Grüße
CMP1985


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#19
28.05.2021 20:21
avatar  trompetendulzian
#19 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
tr
trompetendulzian

Zitat von CMP1985 im Beitrag #18
Update: Eine Erweiterung der Prozessorleistung soll das Problem beheben.

Oh, das klingt spannend! Was wird getauscht oder ergänzt und was soll der Spaß kosten?

Viele Grüße
Trompetendulzian


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#20
28.05.2021 22:19
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#20 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Zitat von CMP1985 im Beitrag #18
Eine Erweiterung der Prozessorleistung soll das Problem beheben.

Oh, das würde mich auch interessieren. SHARC DSP Prozessoren gibt's derzeit lt. Hersteller von 300 bis 2000 MMACS (300 bis 2000 Millionen Multiply-Accumulate-Operationen pro Sekunde). Wie immer alles nur eine Kostenfrage, da einen "kräftigeren µC" einzusetzen... Bei Digikey kostet der nackte 2-GMACS-DSP "nur" um die 30$ (je nach Stückzahlorder) - das vmtl. ausgetauschte Board mit Sicherheit ein Vielfaches davon...


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#21
29.05.2021 00:16
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#21 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Wie gesagt - ich werde berichten. Ihr müsst euch also noch ein bisschen gedulden. Ich bin v.a. gespannt, ob damit das Problem in der Praxis gelöst wird.


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#22
29.05.2021 08:56
avatar  Aeoline
#22 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
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Aeoline

Das dürfte relativ einfach sein: alte Platine raus - neue Platine rein...

*Daumendrück*

VG
Aeoline

Organisten leiden oft an einer schlimmen Krankheit: Augentinnitus - Man(n) sieht nur noch Pfeifen...
Viscount Unico 400 DE [V1.14.19] (56/III/P) : ab 11.2012
Johannus Opus 520 (45/II/P) : 10.1987-11.2012
Siel HB 700 (9/II/P) : 1977-09.1987)

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#23
29.05.2021 12:29
avatar  ahlborn
#23 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
ah
ahlborn

Good morning,
occasionally, with my Sonus 40, I heard some slightly delayed notes when playing very fast scales.
I solved it by mounting an additional DSP card, with the advantage that the polyphony is also increased.
The factory fitted cards are however sufficient for a "dynamic" polyphony that can manage up to a maximum of 12 notes on the keyboards and four on the pedal with "Tutti" inserted.


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#24
29.05.2021 14:09
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#24 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #23
I solved it by mounting an additional DSP card, with the advantage that the polyphony is also increased.

Also, from technical view, this is very interesting. If an additional PCB led to performance increases and to enhanced polyphony in fact, there seems to be a kind of load balancing at runtime. With embedded systems, that are subjected to hard real time requirements, this is rather uncommon. Is it sure, that the new card (probably with a faster DSP mounted) didn't replace the function of another card completely?


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#25
29.05.2021 15:01
avatar  Gemshorn
#25 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
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Gemshorn
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Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #23
Good morning,
occasionally, with my Sonus 40, I heard some slightly delayed notes when playing very fast scales.
I solved it by mounting an additional DSP card, with the advantage that the polyphony is also increased.
The factory fitted cards are however sufficient for a "dynamic" polyphony that can manage up to a maximum of 12 notes on the keyboards and four on the pedal with "Tutti" inserted.


Ok, 12 notes in the hands and 4 in the feet... Unlikely that one would need more.

However, how did you notice? Put a brick on the keyboards?
Just joking, don't take me too serious.

Auf Orgelsuche.

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#26
29.05.2021 15:28
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#26 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Zitat von Gemshorn im Beitrag #25
Ok, 12 notes in the hands and 4 in the feet... Unlikely that one would need more.

Only 12 notes polyphony in the hands could run short in some special cases, as there are so nice organ pieces for two players. An overview e.g. was given by Matthias Weber: for two to play..., Musikwissenschaftliche Verlagsgesellschaft 1993.

I just remember, that even Olivier Latry (who - btw. - never would touch a DO, as he said in an interview) plays organ pieces for 4 hands together with his wife Shin-Young Lee - e.g. Stravinsky's heathenish "Sacre" at the church of Notre Dame de Paris (!)


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#27
29.05.2021 16:21
avatar  ahlborn
#27 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
ah
ahlborn

Zitat von Gemshorn im Beitrag #25


Ok, 12 notes in the hands and 4 in the feet... Unlikely that one would need more.

However, how did you notice? Put a brick on the keyboards?
Just joking, don't take me too serious.


In reality, in these organs it is very difficult to find out the polyphony limit, because they use an algorithm that manages the polyphony in a "dynamic" way; therefore exceeding the 12 notes, first of all the sound components that are less identifiable in the Plenum are eliminated ( for example the initial chiff of some stops). This means that in reality with the Physis you can play many more notes (than 12) with the "Tutti" inserted, and the sound of the notes is always emitted, but the additional notes can have less details such chiff (which in the plenum is hardly would be noticed). Conversely, with a few registers inserted, the polyphony can be total for keyboards and pedal (for those who want to play Volumina...) I think it's a smart way to manage the workload.


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#28
29.05.2021 16:24 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 29.05.2021 16:26)
avatar  ahlborn
#28 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
ah
ahlborn

Zitat von Biffaro im Beitrag #24

Is it sure, that the new card (probably with a faster DSP mounted) didn't replace the function of another card completely?


The Physis system is modular: the motherboard can accommodate up to 4 slots for tone generation boards (in reality they are real dedicated processors that go beyond the limit of the "tone generation board" concept of sampled systems, but by convention this term is still used).
There is of course a balance between the number of DSPs and the number of operations that can be performed. The total number of notes that can be played simultaneously is also included in the number of operations that can be performed. Theoretically, the system would be able to have unlimited polyphony but playing delayed notes that go beyond the possibilities of real-time calculation. For this reason it is preferred to cut out some small irrelevant details in the plenum to have more computing power. The limit of 12 notes (honestly I don't remember if they were 12 or 14 on keyboards, my Viscount engineer friend had told me about it time) is therefore more a theoretical limit than a practical one. It is used to know how many DSP modules must be installed in each model to better manage all operations based on the number of total stops.

The DSP cards exist in two versions: cards with two DSP and cards with 4 DSP (the DSP Shark are always the same, 400MHz version).
So there are no cards with "faster" DSP, but you can add more cards similar to those factory provided to increase the real time computing power.


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#29
29.05.2021 17:25
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#29 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
Gast
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Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #28
For this reason it is preferred to cut out some small irrelevant details in the plenum to have more computing power. [...] The DSP cards exist in two versions: cards with two DSP and cards with 4 DSP (the DSP Shark are always the same, 400MHz version).

Thanks a lot, Ahlborn, for telling these details. So, as far as I understood, the computing power at the Physis organs is balanced across two dimensions: Parallelism and approximation quality. A further interesting question was, how the balancing actually is performed: How are both, the input information and the calculation tasks, dynamically distributed to the different DSPs in real-time, while considering a flexible number of boards? Is there some kind of hardware scheduling at this distributed system? On the other hand, one can imagine, that the approximation depth (omitting tonal details, like chiffs) could be balanced by each processor for itself, based on its individual computation load.


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#30
29.05.2021 20:39
avatar  ahlborn
#30 RE: Aussetzer bei schnellen Repetitionen im tutti [Gloria Concerto]
ah
ahlborn

I am not able to answer this question, but it is necessary to know that the operating system is based on Linux, naturally highly customized.

The additional DSP cards are of the "plug and play" type, so they are automatically recognized when the organ is turned on, and therefore presumably the operating system automatically manages the distribution of the workload based on the number of DSP cards detected.


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