Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade

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25.06.2022 14:56
avatar  PM
#31 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Zitat von DigitalPipes im Beitrag #27
Shall we bet that Physis 2.0 will appear with CC, Silbermann, whatever copy of an existing instrument/voicing school?

Hi Paolo, do you seriously think Viscount will do that? I think, Hauptwerk cannot be 'copied', not with a Johnnus-like technology nor with Physistechnology.

Zitat von DigitalPipes im Beitrag #27
Hauptwerk is dictating the rules here and what we are missing is a unique selling proposition that changes the rules of the game.

My thougt about this: Physis 1.0 is already very good. What I read in your posts (and Ahlborn's as well) is that is is the audiocomponent that makes the good sound you (and ahlborn) are achieving. Of course it is also the intonation, but you both are doing that with Physis 1.0.

However, you both don't use the internal speaker any more, or at least not exclusively. Extra audio, special reverberation technology and the like are your real improvements (correct me if I'm wrong).

How otherwise could I explain why your (and ahlborn's) intonations does not sound as good im my own Physisorgan? I know, the room where it is in is also a contributable factor, as is the organ model, but I guess this is less important than good external audio.
For me making external audio set-up myself is a no go; same for at least three of my organ friends. We are technical dumbies and want an organ that has excellent sound without all kinds of external speakers. Solely satellites for reverb are acceptable for us.

In sum: should physis 2.0 primarily focus on
- new and top-of-the-bill on-board audio (internal audio, that is), and
- new and top-of-the-bill reverberation technology (on-board en with easy to install satellites inculded)
That way hey serve the non-technical organists better and have u unique selling position. What is your opinion? (of course also the opinion of others is welcome!).

Btw, Thanks for sharing your insights & music vids.
PM

„Bach ist Anfang und Ende aller Musik, auf ihm ruht und fuszt jeder wahre Fortschritt“  - Max Reger


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25.06.2022 16:14
#32 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Viscount wäre klug beraten, das neue Physis für den Endkunden zu denken, der einschalten und los spielen will. Denn "Otto Normalorgelspieler" kauft eine Orgel, weil ihm genau der Klang gefällt, den er beim Vorführmodell des Händlers hört.
Uns "Power-Usern" mag es nicht genug Einstellmöglichkeiten geben. Wir sind indes eine marginale Kundengruppe. Und ich vermute, unsere Diskussionen über Möglichkeiten und Grenzen haben auf den Normalo eher ein gewisses Abschreckungspotential: "Wenn das soooo kompliziert ist mit diesem Physis ..."
Mir wurde das jedenfalls von einem Interessenten so gespiegelt, der dann in der Konsequenz eine "schlichte" Sampling-Orgel kaufte.
Dasselbe Phänomen ist übrigens zwischen "Hauptwerk" und "Live" bzw. "Nobilis" zu beobachten. "Plug and play" ist ein starkes Kaufargument, das wir gern unterschätzen.

LG
Michael


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25.06.2022 16:26 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 25.06.2022 16:32)
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#33 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

Zitat von PM im Beitrag #31
I think, Hauptwerk cannot be 'copied', not with a Johnnus-like technology nor with Physistechnology.



It's not hauptwerk that is being copied here, it is the habit that hauptwerk has created in the customer: an acquired (delusional, sorry) taste for "original" instruments. Hauptwerk is not different than Netflix or any addicting substance. Most of the hauptwerk users I know keep on collecting sample-sets in a compulsive way and this is because the need for the real thing is never satisfied, so one hopes that the next set will make the trick. At the same time, we got so used to this "organ model x, y, z" that all the people that listen to my instruments ask me: what kind of voicing is this? Is it French? German baroque? Since when people are asking this questions? Since hauptwerk is around. Before the turn of the century, nobody ever asked these questions, either when we were talking about digital or pipe organs. If one now dares to play bach on a CC sample-set, they are immediately being questioned why? Don't you have a baroque set? Hauptwerk made a cultural revolution and created new needs so yes, I think that Viscount will come up with an instrument that sounds like a Silbermann, a Cavaillé-Coll, a Sauer or an Antegnati. This is the current demand from the organ customers, a demand that originates from Hauptwerk. If I am proved wrong when the new Viscount is released, I will have a true reason to rejoice.

Zitat von PM im Beitrag #31


In sum: should physis 2.0 primarily focus on
- new and top-of-the-bill on-board audio (internal audio, that is), and
- new and top-of-the-bill reverberation technology (on-board en with easy to install satellites inculded)
That way hey serve the non-technical organists better and have u unique selling position. What is your opinion? (of course also the opinion of others is welcome!).



Yes, I agree. These are things that not only will serve the customers using the organ at home, but also those buying an organ for a church installation. The instrument needs to sound mindblowingly great out of the box, without Ahlborn, Frank, Paolo and whomever else having to revoice the organ completely and, in my case, process the organ sound through an audio nuclear power station.

Some more voicing features (optional?) would be very welcome for those like me who like to turn the organ inside out.


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25.06.2022 16:38
#34 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Intonationsmeister

Normalerweise müsste zu jeder Physis eine Intonation auf den Aufstellungsraum mit im Preis inbegriffen sein. Nicht jeder kann sich stundenlang mit Notebook und Editor an die Orgel setzen und das Klang Potential des Instruments ausloten. Die Unterschiede zwischen Standard und angepasster Intonation sind enorm und würden dem "Normaluser" verborgen bleiben. Oder wie wir schon einmal diskutiert haben fertige alternative Orgelstyls mit anbieten.

Gloria Concerto 355cc

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25.06.2022 16:41 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 25.06.2022 16:43)
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#35 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

Zitat von SaintSernin im Beitrag #34
Normalerweise müsste zu jeder Physis eine Intonation auf den Aufstellungsraum mit im Preis inbegriffen sein. Nicht jeder kann sich stundenlang mit Notebook und Editor an die Orgel setzen und das Klang Potential des Instruments ausloten. Die Unterschiede zwischen Standard und angepasster Intonation sind enorm und würden dem "Normaluser" verborgen bleiben. Oder wie wir schon einmal diskutiert haben fertige alternative Orgelstyls mit anbieten.


and one wonders why this has not been done, so far, with the current range of instruments, which keep on being delivered with the same old voicings.


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25.06.2022 16:45
#36 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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@ Saint Sernin: Das sehe ich genauso. Beim Aufstellen eines Instrumentes darf es nicht beim Einpegeln bleiben.
Das Einmessen bei der "Nobilis" ist da ein Schritt in die richtige Richtung, "fertige" Orgeln ideal auf den Raum abzustimmen. Bei Physis wäre das sicher um ein Vielfaches aufwändiger, wie wir aus Erfahrung wissen. Und erhöhter Aufwand würde sich zwangsläufig in erhöhtem Preis niederschlagen. Ich glaube nicht, dass da Kalkulationsspielraum bliebe und der Händler um eine "Intonationspauschale" herumkäme.

LG
Michael


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25.06.2022 18:14 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 25.06.2022 18:19)
#37 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Zitat von DigitalPipes im Beitrag #33
...an acquired (delusional, sorry) taste for "original" instruments...

Count me in here -- Having some kind of approximation to the sound ouf Schnitger's organ in Norden with its glorious reeds would be amazing. It's a dream, not a demand, of course, but still =)
In the spirit of compromise, however, I would be willing to dispense with the short octave ;)

Zitat
...Hauptwerk is not different than Netflix or any addicting substance. Most of the hauptwerk users I know keep on collecting sample-sets in a compulsive way and this is because the need for the real thing is never satisfied, so one hopes that the next set will make the trick...


Well, I say, let them collect the sets if they like, as long as they aren't starving their children in order to pay :D And it's, economically, a lot more doable than, say, collecting whole Physis organs, eh? ;) (even if they bought an individual St Bavo/Haarlem for every day of the week)

But of course you're right: If the possibilities increase, so do the demands, and it'll never be perfect for everyone -- probably the Malthusian principle for digital organs (=
And it's always easier to discover additional requirements than to do away with them =/

Also, they'd really better come out with the new Physis soon, or I fear there might be a revolution (=


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25.06.2022 18:21
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#38 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )

Zitat von Regal acht im Beitrag #37

Well, I say, let them collect the sets if they like, as long as they aren't starving their children in order to pay :D And it's, economically, a lot more doable than, say, collecting whole Physis organs, eh? ;) (even if they bought an individual St Bavo/Haarlem for every day of the week)



Touché.


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25.06.2022 18:24
#39 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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I'm not judging, of course -- after all, what you do with those instruments is really good, so do keep up the good work =)


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25.06.2022 18:30
#40 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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In jedem Fall muss Physis 2.0 sich erst beweisen - und das wird schwer genug, wenn ich die "Masters of voicing" mit ihren ausgefeilten Intonationen hier im Forum betrachte.

Man stelle sich das Szenario vor: Die Meute aus dem Sakralorgelforum schart sich um die erste Physis 2.0 Orgel, hört sie an und kommt einhellig zum Ergebnis: Da haben unsere Crackies aus Physis 1.0 mehr herausgeholt.


Auf Orgelsuche.

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25.06.2022 18:32
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#41 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Zitat von Gemshorn im Beitrag #40


Man stelle sich das Szenario vor: Die Meute aus dem Sakralorgelforum schart sich um die erste Physis 2.0 Orgel, hört sie an und kommt einhellig zum Ergebnis: Da haben unsere Crackies aus Physis 1.0 mehr herausgeholt.


Klaus, you have psychic powers.


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25.06.2022 23:03
avatar  PM
#42 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
PM
PM

Zitat von Gemshorn im Beitrag #40
Man stelle sich das Szenario vor: Die Meute aus dem Sakralorgelforum schart sich um die erste Physis 2.0 Orgel, hört sie an und kommt einhellig zum Ergebnis: Da haben unsere Crackies aus Physis 1.0 mehr herausgeholt.
Daher u.A. mein Argument für primair bessere Audio und Hall. Und nicht in erster Linie bessere Physical Modeling algorithmen, mehr Stimmen oder mehr intoniermöglichkeiten (al ware das auch schön).
Siehe Beitrag #31

PS @ Paolo: fully agree with your assessment of Hauptwerk!

Lg PM

„Bach ist Anfang und Ende aller Musik, auf ihm ruht und fuszt jeder wahre Fortschritt“  - Max Reger


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26.06.2022 08:40 (zuletzt bearbeitet: 26.06.2022 08:48)
avatar  ahlborn
#43 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
ah

Good morning!
Paolo, the result is simply wonderful!
Beautiful!

To Gemshorn: It is very strange that they did not consider your request.
I don't think the reason is a small organ: I had requested the sub / super coulplers for my Sonus 60 (which is not a very expensive organ) and they immediately took my request.
I also asked if it was possible to upload the upgrade also to my Sonus 40 (which is like your Concerto 234), and I was told that another file was needed (they are custom files) but they would have made a special price because I already had purchased the previous upgrade for the Sonus 60. In the end I didn't buy the upgrade for the Sonus 40, but it is clear that Viscount could offer it without any problems: so I think there are no specific issues on Viscount's part to offer an upgrade to all of their Physis models.
Surely there must have been some hitch with the local distributor.


I agree with everything that has been said about Hauptwerk, and I would like to add that the problem, in my case, still concerns the artifacts that are created in the reading of the samples (union of the portions of the samples steady state / release with phase and amplitude differences, etc) which are still present in the latest versions. To my ears these artifacts are intolerable.
Clearly Physis is not perfect either, but it responds to my concept of "quality" of sonic identity of the sound of the pipes, and I am happy with it.

A PM: actually the path that Paolo and I take to get the best out of our tools is conceptually different.
Paolo uses an external upgrade approach: he exploits the pure sound of the Physis without "alterations" of the internal reverb, and channels it externally, then inserting everything he needs (software processing, additional hardware, external speakers, etc.) to obtain the highest possible quality.

I start from inside the instrument, I modify if necessary, and I try to obtain the highest possible quality without adding external elements (in fact I do not use external amplification, but only the internal channels; the only exception is a subwoofer which was necessary due to size room. Apart from that, I use the built-in channels of the console, which I think is an intelligent design, but with components that can be improved).
And I can guarantee that what the standard Physis can still do with the appropriate modifications is truly astounding.


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26.06.2022 08:52
#44 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Danke für deine Gedanken, ahlborn.
Nachdem der "local distributor" nicht liefern will oder kann, werde ich nun doch versuchen, direkt bei Viscount vorstellig zu werden. Gibt es eine eMail-Adresse, die dafür am geeignetsten ist?


Auf Orgelsuche.

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26.06.2022 10:30
avatar  DigitalPipes ( gelöscht )
#45 RE: Sub/Super Couplers - Viscount retrofitting upgrade
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Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #43
Good morning!
Paolo, the result is simply wonderful!
Beautiful!



Grazie Gianluca, sono felice che ti piaccia! :)

Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #43

To Gemshorn: It is very strange that they did not consider your request.
I don't think the reason is a small organ: I had requested the sub / super coulplers for my Sonus 60 (which is not a very expensive organ) and they immediately took my request.
I also asked if it was possible to upload the upgrade also to my Sonus 40 (which is like your Concerto 234), and I was told that another file was needed (they are custom files) but they would have made a special price because I already had purchased the previous upgrade for the Sonus 60. In the end I didn't buy the upgrade for the Sonus 40, but it is clear that Viscount could offer it without any problems: so I think there are no specific issues on Viscount's part to offer an upgrade to all of their Physis models.
Surely there must have been some hitch with the local distributor.



Yes, but what makes it weird - to say the least - is that the same dealer just delivered the same thing to me...

Zitat von ahlborn im Beitrag #43

I agree with everything that has been said about Hauptwerk, and I would like to add that the problem, in my case, still concerns the artifacts that are created in the reading of the samples (union of the portions of the samples steady state / release with phase and amplitude differences, etc) which are still present in the latest versions. To my ears these artifacts are intolerable.
Clearly Physis is not perfect either, but it responds to my concept of "quality" of sonic identity of the sound of the pipes, and I am happy with it.



Ok, Physis is not a satistying product out of the box, but it has intrinsecally all the potential to provide a tremendous sonic experience. I think I said already somewhere else there that when I bought the Sonus I was actually looking for a cheap Hauptwerk console as I did not want to throw huge amounts of money in an empty MIDI controller. And that, when I was at the dealer, the instrument sounded all but attractive. But it took me 15 minutes of playing around with the controls to understand that there was a potential for success under the skin of that instrument. And I also started from a point of total ignorance in audio engineering, but Google and YouTube have been my best friend in this two-year journey. Did I spend a lot of time to achieve the result I achieved? Yes. Money invested? Yes, I think I own all the reverb plugins on the market, equalisers, saturators, and a lot of other tools, just to find out, in the end, that Physis produces such a good sound that nothing extra is required. Just one reverb plugin (a very powerful one!). I should have called my last YouTube upload "Apparition du Physis Eternel" because, at this stage, Viscount's technology mangia gli spaghetti in testa ad Hauptwerk.

I understand the (theoretical) ease of use of Hauptwerk (well, we could open a new thread on this too because all the hauptwerk videos I watch on youtube tell a different story) but it's like comparing fast food to a meal prepared at home with excellent ingredients, the expertise and love of the cooker. The effort required is clearly different, but the result cannot be compared (let alone the personal satisfaction). And yes, Italians have really a thing for food ;)


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